Seriously considering an f-body

"mkbruin, Atlas VP" (mkbruin) 07/19/2014 at 15:25 • Filed to: None

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I'm thinking about picking up a 99-02 Trans Am. Definitely manual transmission, no preference between the 6 or 8. Anyone here own one? Convince me....

offroadkarter > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 15:31

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Keep in mind the build quality and rear ends are garbage, and the engine is partly tucked under the firewall

You have no reason to buy a 6cyl, this is not the type of car where you shoot for the smaller engine. The LS1/manual can easily get upper 20's on the highway.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 15:32

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Cheap to fix, endless aftermarket, good on gas, and decently reliable. The only downside is of all the people I've known to crash them, I no longer know them.

Milky > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 15:42

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Test drove a Firehawk with intake/cam/exhaust …. mahgawd was it fast and the noise was amazing. But the interior is horrible and the handling left too much to be desired for me.

That being said if you want fast & cheap its perfect.

*dont buy the 6, like really don't.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > offroadkarter 07/19/2014 at 15:45

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Really? I've read the 6cyl can get 31 highway and the LS1 can only manage 25. I'm wanting my mom to get one to replace her PT Cruiser so she'll still have a 'cool' car (meaning not an econobox) with a convertible roof and better gas mileage than 23 highway on regular fuel. Also pop up headlights.

But if the V8 can manage to hit 27 or 30mpg highway, then damn son.

daender > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 15:46

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Good straight-line missile, could require some money in the suspension department to get it to handle properly. HORRIBLE engine accessibility, it's a V6-engine (still bad to get in there) bay that the engineers took as a challenge to inappropriately shove a V8 in there. Be prepared to the drop the engine and trans anytime you want to do serious work on it. Hardtops are rare and wonderfully trouble-free, T-tops are plentiful but check the rubbers, and avoid convertibles like the plague.

daender > offroadkarter 07/19/2014 at 15:48

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V8s can get high-20s if you stay off the loud pedal and keep it in 6th the entire time. At least that's what Lt1 cars were capable of.

Bandit > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 15:54

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All you need to know is T-Tops are cool.

offroadkarter > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 15:58

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Ive seen many LS1 owners claim above 25 on the highway, hell one guy on a ford forum i'm on says he can get 30mpg in his ls1 c5 manual vette. That has weight + aero going for it.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > offroadkarter 07/19/2014 at 16:03

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Can they be safely run on regular unleaded, or would a detune be necessary?

shop-teacher > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 16:07

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The 6-speed hooked to the V8 is a double overdrive box. High 20's on the highway is easy, and 30 is not unheard of, so get the V8.

Common issues others haven't mentioned are the power window motors ant the headlight motors are notoriously fragile, but not too expensive to fix.

DoYouEvenShift > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 16:18

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I have 2, one an LS1 the other LT1, one a 6 speed the other an auto. Definitely wait out for the manual and the LS1. MPG on thr highway with the manual should be high 20s to low 30s, depending on your foot and road conditions. Power is great! The LS1 is cammed and daily driven. Interior is fine I think, but Im no interior decorator like others. One car has 180k and no complaints.

Things to watch out for, the speakers like to blow out. Power window motors die. Ttops will drip for a bit in the rain. Theyre neat, but I prefer a hard top. Rear diff will not last long with a sticky tire and clutch dumps. But its fine for normal street abuse. On the TA, headlight motors will strip the gear teeth, but easy fix with aftermarket brass gears. Same with power antenna.

Overall I love them, awesome power, sound great with exhaust, and very reliable.

offroadkarter > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 16:18

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They take 91

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > offroadkarter 07/19/2014 at 16:24

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No way around it? Premium gas or you risk engine damage? Damn.

GhostZ > mkbruin, Atlas VP 07/19/2014 at 16:38

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If you're getting an F-body, this is what I recommend over all other "not classic" generations. Next to that, a 350 IROC-Z camaro.

If you can find one with the WS6 performance package, it is probably considered a downright collectible nowadays. They're one of the fastest and most underrated cars of 90s.

Just make sure you get one with a post-98 LS motor, obviously.

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 16:41

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If you get the 6 cylinder, you just bought a RWD pontiac sunfire.

DoYouEvenShift > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 16:54

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You can. LS1 has two knock sensors that will retard the timing if it detects preignition. But your not really saving a whole lot of money really. And youll be giving up some power and throttle response. Just run premium.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 17:04

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In a more attractive package, with a convertible top, with an indestructible 3800 Series II that sips fuel on the highway and will last for 300k miles assuming regular maintenance and a head gasket replacement or two.

The V8 power would be nice, but premium fuel combined with the gas mileage hit isn't worth it.

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 17:31

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I've never heard anyone claim that the 3800 was a good motor (it's not a bad motor though), much less that it would make 300k miles and 'sip fuel'.

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 17:34

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But if you're looking not for power or modability, there are cars out there that offer all of those benefits with way better build quality, and suspension, and cheaper repair costs. Buy a Firebird for cheap horsepower.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 17:39

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Any suggestions then, on something I could get for less than $6000 that's reliable, convertible, somewhat sporty, and gets 27mpg highway minimum?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 17:41

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The GM/Buick 3800 Series II regularly makes "best engine of all time" lists, and I believe it was somewhere in the middle of the pack when Jalopnik had an "answer of the day" where the question was "best engine of the past 30 (?) years".

My 3800 SII has been going strong for 220,000 miles, has no signs of stopping, and I'm seeing numbers around 29 or 30mpg highway. Pretty fuel efficient for a mill that gets 205hp and 230ft lbs of torque in naturally aspirated form,

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 18:02

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MPG would matter a lot less than insurance costs.

Reliability is going to largely be dependent upon the previous owner.

That being said, at 10,000 miles per year the difference between 30mpg and 25 mpg is a whopping $300, which is a lot less than the insurance cost of switching from a sedan to a 2-door "muscle" car.

On the sporty side, I'd suggest a 240SX convertible. It's got a better resale (All V6 versions of muscle cars are hard to sell after you buy them, no one wants one), insurance will be way better because it's A) japanese and B) a 2.4l 4-cylinder (despite having as much power as a 3.8l V6) and C) Rear independent suspension.

On the less-expensive side, I'd suggest getting an old Jeep. It will certainly cost more up front, but if you can snag any decent Jeep for under $6000, the insurance is going to be cheap on it, and you're pretty much guaranteed to resell it at a profit so long as you don't damage it. It will get worse milage, but that should be offset by the better insurance and resale value.

If your monthly premium in the Firebird is ~$200 a month or more (likely more if you're still young) and the Jeep is $150 or so, you're up $600 from insurance alone. Consider that the Jeep will likely break even, or depreciate by at most $1000, and that the Firebird will likely keep spiraling downward toward junker status (assume $3000 resale) you're not $3600 up. Take $500 out for fuel, and then you're sitting at at least $3000 more in your pocket at the end of ownership, and that's just for a single year. Drive it around for 5 years and you've basically paid it off in the insurance savings alone.

For the 240SX, insurance will be likely ~$200 cheaper for a whole year. but you'd get 30MPG, saving another ~$150. But you'd also have a far faster and sportier car that wouldn't necessarily get mocked for being "not a real firebird."

That's my take on it, though. I've had a friend in high school who languished under the oppression that is a V6 firebird, and he eventually traded up to a LS1 WS6 and never looked back. Cost didn't matter, it was that much better of a car. Ironically, he eventually opted for a Wrangler later on.

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 18:05

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Ah, I must have got confused (and you'll see it in my other reply). I guess I never figured out the distinction between the early, somewhat anemic 3800s and the "series II" ones. I should do more research on buick engines, then.

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 18:13

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To amend my previous post, the 240SX may not be a faster car in a straight line than a V6 "series II" firebird, given that they have ~200HP and not ~160HP like I originally thought. However, the 240SX still comes in around 2800 lbs, vs the Firebird's (close to) 3500 lbs.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 18:15

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This would be for my mom, and I believe it would be cheaper or the same to insure a naturally-aspirated V6 "sports car" vs her current turbocharged PT Cruiser GT which is classed as a sports coupe due to having two large doors and forced induction and requiring premium fuel.

240SX? Wouldn't be bad, though I'm not sure if my mom wants to go back to the early 90s, I personally love them.

Mom loves jeeps, but the poor gas mileage instantly turned her off.

Worth mentioning my mom drives 20880 miles a year, more or less. Her insurance is about the same as mine: $850 per year, I believe.

Honestly, at this point anything is better than that PT Cruiser. Even if it does have a fun engine, the frame is junk, it's horrible on fuel, expensive to insure, interior build quality is beyond terrible, and the transmission is the definition of mediocre.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 18:19

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Dear god, the Firebird is nearly 3500 pounds? How on earth does GM make a "sports car" that weighs nearly as much as my 3567lb Buick LeSabre?

Magic, must be.

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 18:25

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Are you kidding? All of the Muscle cars past the 80s have weighed north of 3300 lbs. Even a notchback Fox body BARELY comes under 3000, if you rip all the extra weight out and empty the tank, and the F-bodies were always the heavier of the two.

Despite the curvy looks, it's all heavy iron underneath that body. It doesn't help that the block is cast iron AND the heads are cast iron. Even the body panels are steel. That makes for one heavy car. One of the BIG reasons they didn't switch to OHC tech like Ford did was because it would add ~100lbs to the weight of all their cars, and they couldn't afford the weight gains for better specific power. Ford could, and that's why the 4.6l V8 weighs more than the 5.7l LS1.

The LS motors, thanks to their aluminum heads and generally more advanced construction, are actually quite lightweight and not much heavier than the 3800 by the looks of it, despite having twice the power.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 18:30

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Yeah, but my Buick is a four-door rolling sofa with the same iron construction that could absorb a collision with a small planet and still be drivable, and the same steel body panels, cast iron block, cast iron heads, and about four cows worth of leather, yet it barely weighs one average American more than GM's sporty contemporaries. It just boggles my mind slightly. There just seems like so much more mass is present in my Buick vs my friend's Camaro, or other friend's Firebird.

Brb, detaching all interior body panels, hood, extraneous seats, and trunk lid. Buick superleggerra (sp).

GhostZ > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/19/2014 at 18:34

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Brb, detaching all interior body panels, hood, extraneous seats, and trunk lid. Buick superleggerra (sp).

Yeeeeeeeesssssss!

Lightweight went to the Corvette. The C4 and C5 weighed in at only 3200lbs.

There's also the extra 100-200lbs of driveshaft and differential to take in that the RWD (assuming your buick is FWD if it has the 3800) Firebird has.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > GhostZ 07/19/2014 at 18:36

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Yep, it's FWD. And dammit looks like I'll need a trip to Walmart or something to get a weird ~.25-inch Torx bits used to hold in the front passenger seat. Bah.